How to lead with empathy in a way that actually sticks

Or this person is leaning more towards introversion. Therefore, when I say in the meeting, Hey, have we arrived at a decision? Maybe it would be good for me to also say if you weren’t able to speak up in the meeting today, I’m gonna reserve making a decision till Tuesday. So if you wanna reach out to me, Or email me between now and then. Make sure you have your voice heard. So just learning that everyone is different and what can you do to make them feel heard.

Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where I bring a decade of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech to help you navigate the ins and outs of being a people manager from conflicts to feedback, to delegating and. We will leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it and everything in between. Doesn’t matter if you’re a new manager looking for some tips. Or a seasoned manager looking up their game.

Everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple. Let’s go. Let’s go, let’s go. Welcome back to the show today. I’m so excited to have Kerri Jacobs with me. Kerri is the creator of the Leading with Empathy program at Google, and she has been leading high performing teams at Google for over 12 years. Her obsession with empathy and leadership and inclusion in every aspect of. Led her to create the program and roll it out to leaders at Google and beyond.

Lia is a member of the 2021 Class of Stanford University’s CCARE in collaboration with ACA. Applied Compassion Training for architects and ambassadors of Applied Compassion. Kerri and I met while at Google through her leading with empathy workshop, and not even kidding. This was the best workshop I had ever attended. I immediately reached out to Kerri and was like, I gotta meet you. I gotta learn more about this. This was amazing. Your humor, your realness. The stories, you brought the examples, it, it has been an inspiration to me in my work and something that I’ve thought about as I’ve been building programs and trainings and different things for managers.

That is why I am so excited to have you here today. So excited that we became friends after meeting through your workshop, and I’ve been such a fan of your work. Likewise. Thank you, Lia. Let’s dive in. You know, you mentioned your obsession with empathy. Where did this begin for you? I suppose it was probably always there, but I think when it became a reality in the workplace was sadly in a period where empathy was in short supply.

I was in a bad place as a manager managing a sales team, feeling completely burnt out, not feeling like my values were aligned with. My leaders and just, just having a, a really crap time. And it, it led me to have a kind of breakdown, have to step away from work for a little bit. And as I reassessed my return, cuz I was so fortunate to be able to take a break, I thought, you know what?

I don’t want to go back to that grind. I just, it just isn’t working for me. And I think I realized that as a leader, I was receiving a lot of training around the, the basics, but not a lot of training was available to me and other leaders around compassion and empathy. And I thought that’s really the common denominator of my leadership. Style across all my roles is that people have said, you always made me feel like you cared.

And that made me in turn feel like I could do better work. So I just had this idea that maybe we should be addressing that in addition to all the other business skills that we think about. And I was extraordinarily fortunate in that I was supported by Google and my VP in creating the program. Wow. I love that. And so for folks that are, I think empathy can be abstract to us. I think sometimes we, we kind of think we know what it means, walk in someone else’s shoes, but maybe it’s not that.

I think there’s been a lot of definitions thrown around. Can you define empathy for us as an audience? Yeah. So empathy to me is the ability to understand and share the feelings of. Right. So I think about it as dialing into how someone else is feeling dialing into their frequency, and there is a difference between empathy and compassion. Compassion arises when someone is suffering. Right. Whereas empathy arises in response to various emotions and experiences, not all negative.

Mm-hmm. So for me, leading with empathy is being able to dial into how others are feeling, not just in times when they’re frustrated or angry or anxious, but also when they’re excited or they, they feel really motivated. It’s remembering how your direct reports or your manager, Or your cross-functional stakeholders and partners or your customers, it’s putting yourself in their position and thinking how, how would I feel in that position? And then really sort of taking that to the next level.

Yeah, and so that’s why it’s such a critical skill for feedback. I know I talked about this in the episode around feedback, how empathy and take responsibility is such a big part of delivering feedback effectively because as you say, it’s for the positive too. Like, Hey, if I landed this big accomplishment, if I had this thing go through that I was really excited about, we wanna share that too. We don’t always want the empathy only on the negative side.

So I love that. Absolutely do. And so I think, yeah, I think that’s really important. For some things I’m saying, Hey, You know what it’s like to get a context less ping or slack or email from someone. It’s more senior than you in your reporting chain. You know how that makes you feel leaders. So can you imagine how that makes someone who reports to you feel? So? It’s just always saying, you know, you’ve, you’ve likely been in this situation yourself.

So try and sort of dial into that. Remember how that felt. And if you can then use your imagination. Yeah, exactly. Love the flip side of that. And then we’ll dive more into leading with empathy is, I think one thing I’ve heard from leaders and, and folks that lack a little bit of that empathy is, well, it wouldn’t bother me. Well that wouldn’t be an issue for me. And that’s lack of empathy right there. And it’s.

Especially on the feedback side, this is the perspective taking that Kerri’s talking about is, hey, imagine it is. No, you’re not in that same experience. Especially if you’re communicating with someone from a different background than you, which oftentimes we are. That maybe something that doesn’t bother me, that that might still bother them, that that might still make an impact. So we wanna think bigger than just, would it bother me or not? Or would this affect me or not?

But it’s really about the other person. I love that you brought up the back. Peace. Because you know, for anyone listening, I’m a straight, white, cisgendered female. So I walk through this world with all the privilege that that affords. Right? And when I’m working with colleagues from historically excluded groups like I have, I have not lived their experience. I also think when a leader says to you, well, it wouldn’t bother me. I, I kind of would like to press a.

Harder on that, Lia, like, are you sure? Is that just a lot of bravado? We’ve all experienced situations that have made us feel uncomfortable or have a lot of doubt about our place in, in the workforce. So, you know, sometimes I think, you know, just being a little bit more vulnerable with ourselves is, is really important. Yeah. And then that helps build psychological safety, which makes it safer to be vulnerable and and to talk about these things.

Well, let’s dive into what is the leading with Empathy program, and I know I have my aha moments that we can dive into, but what are some of the big ones that you’ve seen managers experience in going through the workshop? Yeah, so I definitely position this as this is not a nice to have. This is business imperative, right? When you think about the challenges that we face with attrition, it’s just really important that our workforce feels driven, feels safe.

That leads to better business results. They higher performance, attracting other top talent, people being more creative and more innovative than they were before. So all of this isn’t just something nice to do for fellow humans. It’s actually really good for the bottom line. So my program just takes usually groups of leaders, intact groups, so they all know each other, and there’s a level of psychological safety among them already. And I just walk through, you know, why empathy is important and really kind of ground it in some data.

I’ve done a lot of research on this where I ask people that, that are individual contributors. What is it that you see leaders do that make you feel included, that make you feel more likely to stay with the company, do great work and just experience empathy? And when it comes down to are just the most simple things, I feel included. When someone remembers something about me, like which country I grew up in, or the fact that maybe I have allergies in the summer, like the most basic things.

So I try and ground it in that data so that the leaders can really understand that the tiniest, tiniest behavioral adjustments can make the biggest difference. And then of course, talk about empathy for themselves and self-compassion. And to dive in. Just to jump, you’d interview not at just a few people, you have interviewed thousands of people. Thousands, yeah, yeah, yeah. With just those two questions, what is it that makes you feel included from leaders and what leadership behaviors make you feel excluded?

And I started with the hypothesis that people would say, I feel included when I’m promoted. Mm-hmm. I feel included when I get to stand on a stage and be heralded in front of everyone else. And it’s nothing to do with that. I, I feel included when my boss shows up on time. Mm-hmm. Or when they actually pay attention to me in our one-on-one. Yeah. Those are the things that matter. Absolutely. That was actually one of the biggest takeaways that I’ve cited you in my manager development training around.

One of the biggest things that makes people feel included or excluded by contrast, is when your manager continually moves your one-on-one meeting. Now, think about, this might be the one time all week you get to see your manager. You have a list of things to talk about, you, you wanna share a win, you wanna get their feedback, and they just bump your meeting one time, two times, three times, maybe cancel it, maybe shorten it, a 30 minute meeting.

They get there late. This really affects us. And I know when I was in your session, my manager was there and they had been always bumping my knees and I was like, please take note of this, because that was such a little thing. I think managers do not realize it. They think a one-on-one. Oh, that’s like the lowest priority meeting of my week. I can shift it, but that had, I think that was the number two biggest thing that was important to people, wasn’t.

It was because if you think about it as a leader, your social capital is so disproportionately large. So while you think, ugh, this is kind of a throwaway meeting to the, to the person on the the other end, it’s the most important meeting of their week, given how much influence you have over their career development and their ability to do great work. So even though you’ve probably postponed for a very good reason, just explain. Yeah. You know, because otherwise the story they’re telling themself is, I’m not important enough.

Exactly. And one thing I advise managers do is, Hey, if it’s gonna be a busy week, say them on Monday. Hey team, it’s a busy week. I might have to shift some things. Understand it’s not in intent. Just set that context up front. And then people don’t feel that, like you say, people aren’t gonna just look, oh, they should see my calendar that I’m busy. Or they should understand I’m a busy, important. No, like you said, people just feel undervalued and and invisible.

And I think the other piece is if you’re canceling it or rescheduling because you feel like, well, there’s not really, we don’t really talk about a lot of stuff. They’re not, they’re not coming in with any content. That’s an opportunity for you as a manager to talk about how to better utilize the time. Oh, yeah. I mean, you are right, like the, the one-on-one is only, it only matters if the person shows up because they’re training Seriously.

Yeah. Not just the leader. So there, there is responsibility on both sides, but yeah, it’s an important catch up at some point in the week and you’d be amazed how many managers either just dismiss them completely or think that a quick conversation over. You know, our ping is is enough. Well, with so many of us working from home, we’ve already lost so much of the visual cues that we get from face-to-face communication. The least we can do is show up.

Even if you have to make it 10 minutes a week. It’s really important. I’m curious, cuz you mentioned with, you know, working remotely, how has some of the findings and learning. Progressed as folks have either started to return to office or as we’ve moved into hybrid, has there been anything new that’s come outta that? Well, I will say while we were all remote, and again, a huge privilege to be able to work remote, obviously. Yeah. It definitely opened up a lot of skeptics eyes to the value of this work.

Mm-hmm. Right. Because prior to Covid, there were a lot of leaders who would not attend my workshop or, you know, wouldn’t prioritize it. And because it was seen as one. Soft skills that it wasn’t as business crucial. Now, I will say that they soon changed their mind when they realized, you know, how important it was to have that human connection with the people that they’re managing when they’re no longer face-to-face. So now the hybrid thing is hard.

Lia, I find it really, really hard. I, when I’m doing my workshops, I actually ask that attendees do it either. All in one room or all remote. Yeah. But a mixture of two is complicated because you’ll have side conversations happening in some meeting rooms or some parts of the, of the, of the office. And then the people who are joining remotely back to feeling like they’re second class citizens, which, given that we should all have empathy for the person in that situation.

Cause we’ve all been that person in the last few years. Is is, is saddening. Yeah. And I like that example of taking control over the meeting and saying, Hey, we need to make this equitable. It’s gotta be one or the other. I think. One or the other. Yeah. And there are some meetings, not just workshops, like leader development stuff that you and I do, but even performance discussions and promotion discussions. I actually find that. Everyone working, dialing in remotely makes it much more equitable.

Mm-hmm. Right. Have people kind of, I don’t know, adding voice and amplifying some, some biases and things like that when they’re not actually in person in the room. If it makes. Sure that everyone’s on the exact same footing and that can be really helpful. Yeah, that’s a great tip. I think people are often wondering, well, how do I make the best use of hybrid? And hybrid doesn’t just mean three days in the office, two out. It means rethinking the way we come together as a whole.

So looking across what are the kinds of meetings, what are the kinds of moments we get together? Where does in-person versus remote create different Cause it create inequities in conversation, in being able to contribute. Where could it unintentionally exclude and, and sort of determining what makes sense for what format? Any other aha moments or, or things that, especially on that list of, of answers that were surprising to folks? I know I mentioned the one-on-ones. Yeah, so the one-on-ones, I think, you know, I, I learned that some leaders will intentionally show up one minute early for calls or meetings because it’s interesting to them who else is there early, and it’s a fantastic opportunity for them to have some, some chat and learn more.

I thought that was really interesting, but really it’s about learning and listening. So, you know, just asking. Even if it’s not normal to them to, to make notes when they’re speaking to people about things outside of work, just jotting down some simple things like, oh, this person is a visual learner. I must remember that. Or This person is leaning more towards introversion. Therefore, when I say in the meeting, Hey, Have we arrived at a decision? Maybe it would be good for me to also say, if you weren’t able to speak up in the meeting today, I’m gonna reserve making a decision till Tuesday.

So if you wanna reach out to me or email me between now and then, make sure you have your voice heard. So just learning that everyone is different and what can you do to make them feel heard. And then this most simple one of all is that the power of a thank. The power of, you know, you were doing a phenomenal job. I’m so proud to be working with you. Whether that is just you saying it verbally or you sending a message, or you giving a gift, whatever it might be.

There are times when that can change the trajectory of someone’s day, week, month, year. And people will share with me stories of a voicemail that a boss left for them or a post-it note that a manager left on their desk that they treasure and keep for. And you know, sometimes I think the leaders don’t even know the impact they’re having with those just well-placed moments of gratitude. Yeah. Wow. It’s so powerful. I mean, I think I read at STAT H B R a couple years ago that people need six positive reinforcement things to everyone constructive.

And this doesn’t mean giving people participation awards. This means thanking them, appreciating, recognizing them, and, and we’re seeing the, the converse of that right now, a lot of the reason that’s fueling quiet, quitting, and great resignation is people feeling a lack of recognition. They are literally telling us they’re voting with their feet, saying, okay, you know, I don’t feel like I matter here. I’m gonna do something else. It’s so sad, isn’t it? Because it’s so simple.

I mean, I try and make an effort that the first email that I send every single day is one that thanks someone right before I deal with all the other crap in my inbox. Now, thankfully, I work with so many great people that I don’t have to think too hard, but like you say, it doesn’t need to be good. It doesn’t need to be like just, you know, you get an award for showing up, but it’s saying, Hey, I really appreciate the way you pushed back in that meeting yesterday, or, I really appreciate the fact that you sat back and let her voice be the dominant one.

It doesn’t have to be about the what. It can be about the how. And I think just sometimes just checking in and, and letting people know, I noticed that, like I really notice. The way that you took charge, or I noticed the way that you put the customer at ease. I think it just means that I start my day feeling better cuz it works both ways and I know that that person’s day’s gonna start better too.

Yeah, that’s a great point. Gratitude has the effect on both people. And so if you’re feeling stressed, if you’re feeling burnt out, try a little bit of gratitude and you’re gonna see your whole sentiment. One more thing on recognition. You know, this is something I talked about in my episode around better supporting women in the workplace, because this is another stat, you know, McKinzie and Leanin talk about in the Women in the Workplace report about one of the primary reasons women are leaving at higher rates than ever, especially positions of leadership.

Is a lack of recognition. And so again, people are telling us this and because women face the double standards and biases and all these messages around, keep your head down. Good work at notice. It can be difficult to put your work out there. You may be told a hundred times, just talk about your work, brag about it. No one cares. And then you do that and then you’re told. Hey, who do you think you are? Right?

That’s what I’ve heard in my career. Like, you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t. And so the recognition is even more important and proactive. I think, like you said, like you called out different small examples. Thank you for the way that you set up the context in the meeting. Thank you for closing that meeting on time. Thank you for, you know, helping onboard that team member. Thank you for whatever it doesn’t have to be, and, and not saving thank yous till a product ships or you know, the launch party, things like that.

That’s so true, and I think you’re right. There’s the gender lens to this. And then in addition, the cultural lens too, right? I mean, you know, I come from a country in Scotland where it really is like you cannot, I wouldn’t even tell my parents I got promoted because I know their reaction would be. Well, don’t get too big for your boots, you know, who do you think you are? Mm-hmm. And I know it’s even worse in certain Asian cultures, like, and it, this is challenging.

It’s also challenging. Let’s be fair, for the male boss who can feel quite awkward praising his female staff and doesn’t want him to feel like he’s just giving them flowers, you know? So I think it’s a challenge, but yeah. Things that we don’t like you said, you don’t have to wait for the big launch. You don’t have to wait for the big splashy thing. It’s the small stuff that really matters. Even just saying to someone, oh my God, I was having such a bad day yesterday, and then that silly video that that you sent me totally cheered me up.

Thank you. Yeah, there you go. That’s, that’s all to do. Yeah, I love that. And so folks that were hearing this six to one and we’re like, oh, I don’t know how to do this. We just gave you like 20 examples of very lightweight things. And I think especially, you know, my audiences, both folks in corporate, also entrepreneurs and small business owners, I think right now there’s so much uns. Certainty with where things are going with when we can scale in the economy, that it’s really important to be thanking your team, recognizing your team.

Folks don’t really know the where we’re going and thanking people. Doesn’t have to be, you’re gonna be in this job forever. You know everything. But recognizing people and building them up while they’re there working with you, that’s gonna go so far to build their confidence, build their resilience, build, you know, their sort of full view of what they’re capable of in their career. And then, you know, they role model it for others too, just bears it forward.

I do think, you know, the flip side of it is that without empathy and compassion, workplaces can become quite powerful amplifiers of human suffering. Mm-hmm. And you know, I do say that with all the privilege that I have and that people in our industry have, you know, I get it, but it’s still, like you say, you spend so much time at work that if you are miserable, if you’re not, if you don’t have a good relationship with your manager, if you are feeling undervalued, it can cause harm.

So these small things, while they may seem flippant and not important, they really make an enormous difference. Yeah. Well, on that note, what are some of the things that you see managers get wrong when they’re trying to lead with empathy? So sometimes I lie awake at night, worried that I am basically in my training, trying to get managers. To fake it till they make it. Mm-hmm. And I really never want the, the empathy or the compassion to be inauthentic.

Like if you are this type of manager who has never written a thank you card before, don’t start. That’s just not in your character to do that. Then find a way that is. Maybe a text would work. So I do worry sometimes that when I’m showing the examples of behaviors that I see some leaders like hmm. Having writing notes and thinking, oh, tomorrow I’m gonna be one minute early for my meeting and I’m gonna ask them all about their private life and I’m going to be vulnerable.

And you know, you have to do it in a way that is authentic to you. I think that’s the biggest thing that people try to get wrong. And then I think the other one is just that they, again, they don’t see. For the business critical piece that it is. Mm-hmm. That, you know, it’s like, eh, that’s that, that’s great, but get back to me when I’ve accomplished one, two, and three because I’m, you know, I’m working so hard at the moment, I don’t have time for this other stuff.

Yeah. So you really have to build it into your day-to-day system and, you know, remind yourself at e every point, like, am I doing everything I can to make that person, to give them the situation in which they’re going to thrive? Because, What we all want. Right. Success for everybody. Yeah. So a big piece of this too is self-awareness, it sounds like. Yes. I think that’s huge. Yeah. And that can be that you’re not going to completely change in a one hour workshop with me.

Yeah. Or by listening to a couple of your episodes. Right. This is a drip effect. Yeah. And you need to hear it over and over again. And I think what’s important is that senior leadership value. Incentivize these behaviors and reward these behaviors and most importantly, role model of themselves. Cuz the other thing that’s a big blocker to this are midline managers coming to sessions and saying, well, this is all very well, but my VP or my president, you know, or my CEO is never gonna act this way, Kerri, so why should I?

So, you know, it’s really important that this comes top down. Yeah, and I, I’m definitely encouraged and seeing more. Yeah, could not agree more and echo the same. I hear often in my workshop, especially when I talk about things like feedback, needing to be a two-way street. Managers will say, well, it’s not how it works around here. And so they feel like, well, this is great, but I’m being squeezed by my own management chain. And so as you said, the more we can be demonstrating and modeling these things and embodying them from the tops down and really encouraging it through rewards.

As you mentioned, the more we shift the culture, because I think it’s often said, culture is defined by what’s rewarded or punished, and so if we are not rewarding this, we’re not really putting our money where our mouth is with how important these things are. I agree. I love the quote that someone said, culture is how you feel. Your company on a Sunday night. Yes. You know, just, just think about that. If you’re a leader listening to this, how do you think your teams feel on a Sunday night?

You know, it’s okay if there’s a little bit of dread, that’s normal, right? But, but if there’s a lot and it’s actually causing anxiety, then what can you do to make that better? Yeah. Love that. So one last question before we kind of start to wrap is talk about burnout and, and hustle culture and, and how does burnout come to play in with this lack of empathy in the workplace? Oh my goodness. So it’s, it’s huge.

I think the self-compassion piece, I do think that managers are, you know, they’re, they’re the one. Group, the one population that has it the hardest? Yeah, because, because we are asking them to do all these things to take care of the people that report to them. And they’re also having to work so hard to report up to those above them that they do get squeezed. Um, so I think it’s really important that managers support each other.

Hmm. Um, that’s such a great like, cohort for you. If you’re having a challenging conversation with a direct report, then you know, role play it with another manager beforehand. Or if you see one, a fellow manager struggling, just say to them, Hey, is there anything I can take off your play? I just had an hour open up on my calendar. What can I do? So I think they’re supporting each other. I think it’s really important. The role modeling piece is, is huge because.

It with this work, devotion, this, this hustle culture stuff. You know, people feel like if they’re not worthy at work, then they’re nothing. Mm-hmm. That’s so sad. And that again, has a knock on effect with the work that I do in that people will deprioritize it. Yeah. Because they’ll burn out there exhausted. And who does she think she is coming along telling me that I have to say thank you to people and you know, pay attention in my one-on-ones and remember.

Kids’ names and things like that. You’re just giving me extra work when in fact I’m saying no, actually what I’m doing by giving you these skills and reminding you about these behaviors is actually making your life easier. Because then when there’s more psychological safety, you can say to your team, I’m struggling, or I recognize you’re struggling, and how can we help each other? But it’s really, really hard. Now I will. Biggest vote of confidence that I’m seeing is in new people, the younger generations coming into the workplace.

Lia, I just see them saying, you know what? I’m not gonna do this. I’m not gonna put my mental health at risk. I’m gonna, when I’m finished this report, I’m gonna go for a walk. And whereas some from my generation, we’re still feeling like that badge of honor. Busyness and product. I have to be working all the time in order to make myself valuable, especially in a world where there are layoffs and uncertainty and everyone’s trying to demonstrate their worthiness.

I just, I love that we have this younger generation who’s saying, yeah, that stuff’s important. But more important is my health. Yeah. And I’m gonna prioritize that. I think we have a lot to learn from them. Yeah. Yeah. And that could start a shift of understanding that there’s more out there than would be nice. I think Covid started that. Yes. And also the younger Generat should absolutely. So one thing to echo about what you were talking about is that this stuff doesn’t take more time.

That we’re supposed to do more with less. Right now we’re all, nobody has budget, nobody has time, no one has space, and yet there’s a belief that this work takes more time when what is more costly and time consuming than having team members leave. Especially after a short time when you’ve just ramped them up or when people are unclear about expectations or, oh, you’re so right. Like there’s such a cost there to attrition and lack of knowledge share and you know, just, and then you not being the kind of destination that people want to come to and others, you know.

There’s a huge cost and short term leaves and, and everything else. And not to mention the diversity and inclusivity impact because like you say it, what tends to happen is that people that are leaving are the ones that were underrepresented in the first place. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So it doesn’t cost a lot to smile and listen attentively and maybe pay a little bit more attention than you would ordinary. Exactly. And to your point on folks that are underrepresented, that’s, that’s who companies are spending so much time and investment to recruit in the first place, and then they have a bad experience when they get there.

Like there’s a big disconnect there. It doesn’t make any sense. No. And, and these things, as you say, they don’t take more time and for, you know, this audience of managers, of leaders, This is about making your job easier. This work is so that you can scale so that you are supported, so that your team members can step up as owners and see, Hey, here is how I can take responsibility. I feel validated and recognized, so I want to take more on.

It’s not about, you know, squeezing everything out at people, but it’s about amplifying them so that they feel like they can step up and really step into that, that. And you also cultivate the reputation as a leader that everyone wants to work for. Yeah. And people start giving you opportunities that you wouldn’t have had otherwise because, you know, you, everyone knows that you’re, you’re, you’re great and that, you know, you support your people and you get fantastic results.

There’s definitely win-win. Yeah. Absolutely. Is there anything you’re working on that you’re excited to share with our. Yeah, so I’m really excited that I’m starting to work with groups outside the tech industry too. So just taking this empathy work and really thinking about how it applies to leadership’s, uh, leadership in other parts of the world too. So working with some medical staff and some nursing teams and things like that, because while it’s important in what we do, it’s even more important if you’re someone who is, you know, giving the.

Life-changing information to a family member. Yeah. In a, in a serious situation, how do you do that with as much empathy as you can without it taking us a personal toll mm-hmm. On your mental health too. So I’m excited to, to expand it even further. That’s so awesome. Anything you wanna leave our audience with before we wrap? I would just say a question that I, that I sometimes ask is, what do you remember about the best leader you’ve ever worked?

Think about the best leader you’ve ever worked with and what is it you remember about them? I’m pretty sure it’s not how they navigate pivot tables, you know, or how they ex they approved your expense reports on time. It’s gonna be something about how they elevated you, how they stretched you, how they, how they, you know, took you to the next level. And I just want. Listeners to think about how would you want people to answer that about you if you were the best leader they’ve ever had?

First of all, are you, and, um, and if you are, you know, what are the things that they will always remember about working with you? I think that’s just one to, to continually remember because let’s face someone that reports to one of us will one day be leading one of us, you know? Mm-hmm. And it’s really important that we remember. That the future leaders are coming from that pool that we are currently managing. Yeah, I love that.

And extra credit is write that down and then read that before you have to go into a hard conversation. Before you onboard a new team member before you interview. Like how do you wanna show up? How do you wanna become across? Because it has to be continually set as in reset as an intention, otherwise, We think about it, it’s all great, and then we go about our patterns. So write it down and review it regularly so that you show up that way.

That’s such good advice. Anything you can write down I always think is just really, really important. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kerri, for Ha, for being on the show today. I loved our conversation and so excited to continue to follow your work. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks, Lia. In the workplace right now, we’re all feeling stuck. Managers are burning out. Employee engagement is on the decline, and women are leaving the workforce at record numbers.

And if you have a small business, you’re wondering when is the right time to scale. The good news is you do not have to solve these problems alone if you’re looking for tools to better support your managers. Finally improve those employee engagement scores. Retain that woman talent you worked so hard to attract. Or make sure that in your small business everybody’s on the same page about how to get things done. Then my programs were designed for you.

Reach out at [email protected] and we’ll chart the course to building your best possible team. That’s all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple Podcast where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive. I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at liagarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.