How to build a strong team culture on a remote team

It’s very freeing when the team does things better and differently than me, cuz I get to learn from them. And when I get to see someone’s approach that’s different than mine, I get to say, okay, cool. What if we also tried this? You know, we get to kind of continue to build on each other and collaboratively get to create something that’s far better than what I would’ve done alone or they would’ve done alone. And I think like that’s where the magic is.

Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where I bring a decade of experience working in some of the most influential companies in tech to help you navigate the ins and outs of being a people manager. From conflicts to feedback to delegating and more, we will leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it and everything in between. Doesn’t matter if you’re a new manager looking for some tips. Or a seasoned manager looking up their game.

Everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple. Let’s go. Let’s go, let’s go. As a team leader or business owner, you’re no stranger to wrestling with some of the toughest situations that come up as a manager. But sometimes you need a little bit more support, and you don’t have the time to spend researching on the internet or taking a bunch of canned trainings. That is why I am so excited to share the Managing Made Simple Hub, your one stop shop to everything you need to be a great manager.

The Hub is an interactive community offering a monthly live Q& A, ask me anything call, where you can bring up anything that’s top of mind, along with curated resources and tools, monthly challenges, exclusive discounts on my services, and conversations with experts. Best thing is there’s no longterm commitment and you can hop in and out anytime. Sign up today at liagarvin.com/hub and I cannot wait to see you in our next live Q&A session. Welcome back to the show today.

I’m so excited to have Audrey Sk with me, who is the CEO and founder of Audrey Digital. And Audrey and I are gonna dive into managing small business team members and how to, you know, figure out when to hire, how to grow your team, how to support a team as a small business owner, and it’s gonna be a great conversation. Audrey and I met earlier. Last year, late last year at a retreat we were both speaking at, and I was just instantly drawn to Audrey’s, how she manages a team, her ideas around be building an inclusive team culture, a strong team culture with remote teams.

And we’re gonna talk about all that today. So before I dive in, I will introduce Audrey to you more formally. Audrey Saccone is an experienced marketer and launch strategist. With multiple seven and eight figure launches under her belt. So following five and a half years in the nonprofit sector, Audrey moved into the online marketing space where she’s worked for major players like Marie Forleo and Sophia Amoroso. So you know, heavy hitters if you’re, if you’re in the entrepreneurial space.

And then the space around building businesses. Super excited to learn more about that. Now, today, Audrey serves the online business community through her full service marketing and launch agency, Audrey Digital and her education platform launch bff. She takes the tried and true method. She’s learned from working with the best, coupled with a healthy dose of resourcefulness. So we’re gonna dive into that to help establish entrepreneurs find success with tools and strategies. That work and that are the most authentic to them.

And I mean, that’s what you gotta find. I think a lot of us, we find there’s a lot of tools out there, but they’re not always authentic and they’re not always tailored to us. And so again, that’s why I love your work and what I’ve learned about you is, is you really want to get to know the people you’re working with so that it really works for them. Absolutely. So welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

So I would love to dive in. You know, you’re a small business owner, you’re managing a team, but if we roll back the tape a little bit, I’m curious about your first experience with managing people. How did it go? Did you love it? Did you hate it? What? What happened there? I loved it. I had a couple of first experiences that were all very kind of different, but led to where I am today. But my first ever time managing people was, I used to manage a pure bar studio.

So I, as you said, I used to work at a nonprofit. I live in New York City, nonprofit pay in New York City. It is better than nonprofit pay anywhere else, but it’s still not that much money. So I did some work on the side at this fitness studio. I had done marketing and I kind of pitched myself to manage the front desk team because I knew I wanted management experience At the nonprofit I was at.

We did not have middle management. It was a 25 person team. There was senior leadership and there was junior doers. That was it. There is no in between as is typical for a team of that size, and I knew to get to the next level people, managing was something I needed experience doing. So I was like, okay, will you let me help you? Like take the team. I literally did it for like $20 an hour, which is so stupid.

I was like, I didn’t care. I just wanted experience hiring people, like having to give. You know, performance feedback. I did not let anybody go. She did that as the, wanted to do that as the owner of the business. It was a small business, but you know, like I got my feet wet in a very safe environment. Mm-hmm. Awesome. And what were some of the things, like what was surprising about that first experience when you were a manager?

What was something maybe you didn’t expect? So the thing that was the most difficult about that experience and why I kind of say it’s one of my first experiences managing is. We were never working at the same time. So the way the studio worked, there was one teacher and one front desk person, and so either I was at the front desk as the manager, like as my working shift, or one of my team members was there.

So if I needed to support my team, I would have to like come during the off hours. Sometimes that was like when I was working my day job, so I couldn’t do that or. You know, just, just managing and supporting a team when you are not actually working with them is really hard cuz you can’t give real time feedback, which I think is like the most important feedback you can and most effective feedback to give. But you know, you also don’t see what’s happening cuz you’re not physically or virtually.

Working with them. So it was like I just had to trust that these people were doing a good job set up, you know, a lot of systems so that they knew what to do during their shift. That they had a system for reporting on that at the end of their shift so they could have a proper handoff, you know, which actually was good training for remote work. But yeah, made it really hard. Absolutely. And, and I mean, I think you’re, you’re really speaking my language here because when I talk a lot about, you know, how to effectively manage distributed teams and remote teams is exactly what you’re saying is trust is is a given.

It has to be there. Yeah. Otherwise, it’s gonna be really difficult for both the manager and the team members. But you touched on something so important, which is focusing on the how, how is we’re going to get done. And then when that’s really clear, that allows you to be able to have that trust because. That’s where you can set clarity and expectations. People know what success looks like. You have a set of like loosely defined processes.

We’re getting things done. And so yeah, I would love to dive into now. So there’s like a little bit of that that sort of paved the way for. You know how you ended up, now that you manage a distributed team and a remote team, you know, what are some of the things that are important to you now as a business owner? Trying to create that sense of trust, create clarity in the how for managing your team.

I think the thing that has not translated well, From that role to this one is, that role was very repetitive. I could train somebody once, you know, I could have two or three training shifts with them. Have a couple shifts for their on their own, and know that they’re gonna like be treading water a little bit, but eventually they’re gonna get it. It’s just a repetition based role. Yeah. Whereas now for the agency, well there is a lot of repetition, like big air quotes, repetition to what we do at the same time, you know, writing a, like writing a sales page for example.

Doing that for somebody who is female, creating for people in the entrepreneurial space who are new at their business is very different from creating for somebody who’s. Male and targeting people in a corporate environment who, you know, are people of color, you know, like very different audiences, so well, yes, we might say, okay, here’s a structure, here’s the approach. You know, actually how you do it and how you might start it are very different, you know, in a creative, you know, work function.

So it’s been a true work in progress. To be developing systems that support the team and support how they work, but doesn’t stifle their creativity at the same time, which is. Really a very fine, fine line to, yeah. Balance. Yeah. And I mean, I think one thing that can help with that is creating a strong team culture so that mm-hmm People are, feel safer to take risks, bring their ideas forward, innovate, knowing that. You know, you believe in them, you understand their learning, and it’s okay to make a mistake or to try something that doesn’t work.

And, and so I’d love to hear, you know, I know you have different sort of rituals and, and things that you do with the team to create some of that culture. What do some of those look like? Well, I think, to back up a second, I think the thing that is really hard as a leader and as an entrepreneur is. What we say and what we do are often not the same thing. So, yep. While I can say to my team, until I’m blue in the face, I want you to take risks, I want you to try it.

Sometimes they’ll do that and I’ll be like, what were you thinking? And you know, cuz I’m like, It. You took the wrong risk, right? Yeah. Because while of course we’re saying like, yes, take risks, what we’re really saying is take the exact same risk I would take, you know, which is impossible. That’s good. Yeah, yeah. You know, so I think what’s going back to the ritual piece of it and the practices with the team, it’s really for me then how can my actions reinforce what I’m saying?

So for example, I have a team member who. Brought me no new ideas for a long time, and, and I could tell was like really nervous about pitching me anything. And I was like, just, I was like, just bring me ideas. And she was just like so nervous and I was like, okay, here’s what we’re gonna do. I can tell you, don’t wanna bring me ideas because you’re afraid I’m gonna tell your ideas not good. And I get that, that’s reasonable.

However, all your ideas are not going to be good because that’s life. So for the next couple weeks on our one-on-one, I want you to bring me 10 new ideas. They can be for our business, they can be for clients. They can make sense. They could not make sense, but I want you to get used to me telling you your ideas aren’t good. But also I want you to get used to me telling you that most of your ideas are good, which they were.

And now. Now, we’ve been doing this for three months and she finally said to me, can I do like three ideas? I’m running out of ideas. And I said, yes, yes, Ken was a lot, but she’s so much more comfortable pitching me things during the week. We’ve started some really great new initiatives because of it, which she’s seen come to fruition, which has given her a lot of pride in her work. Like I can tell she’s much more excited about what she does and has some more autonomy.

So it’s. Looking at each person as an individual and seeing how they’re, you know, getting stuck on something that you might be asking them to do and how can you work together to correct the behavior on both sides. Because as we were talking about before we started the recording, the behavior, it’s not just on the team member. Like she was right to be feeling shut down and stifled because I had shut down a lot of her.

Ideas unintentionally, but they happened to not be the right fit when she pitched them. So ICE had said, no, not right now. Mm-hmm. Which she took it. If you hear that over and over again, you’re like, oh God, my ideas suck. Yeah. Like she hates every, and that wasn’t the case. Yeah. You know, and she just needed the practice. Yeah, well, what everyone just heard here is a masterclass in psychological safety. So I just wanna recap kind of what you heard, because this is how you create that trust, and I think what’s important about the story is that there was a shift, and so it wasn’t like, Hey, this person came in and they loved sharing their ideas and they were great.

Like you said, it was the person was feeling stuck. There was a disconnect with communication, and so you took action. And I think one of the biggest tools that we can bring into creating psychological safety, which is the safety and taking risks and being vulnerable and, and making mistakes, is to be able to be direct, be candid, but doing that with the foundation of trust and respect. And so you kind of did an, an exposure therapy in a sense, right?

Of saying, okay, we’re gonna bring as many as we can. And I’ve seen a lot of teams do this effectively of doing. You know, let’s have a bad idea, brainstorm or a wild idea as a brainstorm or what’s something we would never do. Mm-hmm. And these are the kinds of things you can do, like Audrey talked about, where you can make it really safe to be very expansive. Mm-hmm. So that you’re not getting fixated on, oh, I have one idea, one shot.

And if it’s bad, I’m bad. You’re saying, let’s, let’s go big. So it’s not really possible. You could have 10 ideas we’re gonna run with every single day or every week. So we have a big, you know, we have a breath of them so that you get comfortable saying, okay, here’s the zone of when something’s in the right direction. Here’s the zone when it’s not. But you’re building comfort. And then, and I think you, by modeling that for this person, they built more comfort on, like you said, sharing ideas, but they also sort of to trust you that, that when you say this is in the zone that you mean that, so they see that predictability in your feedback too?

Yeah, absolutely. And we’ve. I mean, another thing we’ve instituted, we have a monthly team show and tell. We extend our team call. Our team calls weekly for 30 minutes and we once a month at 60 minutes. It happened to be today, the day that we’re recording this, and we started that because one of my team members really had a hard time presenting and as an agency who does a lot of creative work, That’s very core to what we do is we have to present to clients and I, when it makes sense, like to help, you know, have my team present so that they can showcase the work that they’ve created.

And she just was like really having a hard time. I was like, okay, let’s create a space where you can practice. It’s in front of your peers. It’s people you see every day. And now a fun benefit of it is that everyone gets to see each other’s work, which doesn’t happen a lot in this type of. Work, you know, there’s a lot of baton tossing, but sometimes you, like, if you started the project, you don’t see how it ends, you know?

So now we like actually know what’s happening. I mean, I always know what’s happening, but they don’t. And you know, it’s because I wanted to support my team member through this presenting. And it’s been a year and her presenting has improved, but it’s not like, you know, it’s not night and day. Things take a lot of time. So I think it’s also recognizing that like, it’s not. Okay, we’re gonna do this once and now you’re like the best presenter ever.

Yeah. Yeah. This example is, is awesome for a number of reasons too. I mean, beyond giving a person an opportunity to grow and develop in this skill, I think a lot of times when we’re. Busy and we’re, we’re running fast and everybody’s running fast, and we’re the, we’re the business owner or we’re the manager and we feel like, well, we have the visibility. We just keep going. And, and what you’ve created was an opportunity for everyone to see how their work all fits together, which then fuels a sense more of a sense of meaning and purpose and connection to each other.

It’s also a place where people can identify redundancies on a team. Maybe not in the team of, you know, that where everybody’s has a really distinct mm-hmm. You know, owning a specific space. But a lot of times in teams, there’s people that are a little bit doing something, someone else is doing and there’s either redundancies or there’s really important opportunities to collaborate. So maybe you can say, Ooh, I. I actually just solved that problem, or I’m stuck on that too.

Let’s partner together and figure this out. And so creating that share out space that has a number of values beyond just informing you as the leader. And so I would really say to, to managers out there that are thinking, well, I’m in the loop. I don’t really, you know, I already know what I need to know it. It’s kind of like, what’s the point of this? That forum is just as much for everyone else to then scale each other’s knowledge and impact as it is for you.

And if anything, It creates a sense of community, you know, at the very least, with a remote team or hybrid or folks that are, you know, distributed, working all over the world. It brings people together to see, hey, like I have this feeling of a team. I’m not just, you know, logging into a computer from my bedroom and then closing it at the end of the day. So I love that example for, for a number of reasons.

Yeah. It’s so fun to see them cheer each other on, like, I’ve been so impressed and pleased with how. My team has formed relationships with each other as a remote team. Yeah. You know, like they co-work with each other virtually. And I don’t organize it. Like they’ll just put a note in Slack and say, Hey, who wants to just hop on Zoom and just sit on Zoom together while we’re working so we can work together? And like, and I, and I never participate in that cause I want that to be a space for them, but I love that they even take the initiative to do that in the first place.

Yeah. That’s awesome. So, as you know, are there moments, it sounds like it’s, it’s mostly remote, it’s mostly virtual. Mm-hmm. Do you get together as a group in any in person? I’m just curious, like do you, are there touchpoints or people come together? We haven’t, although that’s certainly on my like end of year plan to try to get everyone together. But we’ve, this year we’ve actually become hybrid accidentally. Of my, let’s see, I think there’s seven of us total.

Four of us are based here in New York, so we actually have a WeWork space here in New York with four desks that we can all sit in and not everyone’s there every day. We’re not always there at the same time, but, and it happens to also all be my operations team, which is really nice that it’s my core team, like running the day to day where we really do benefit a lot from collaborating with each other, sitting next to us saying, where’s this asset?

What’s happening with this project? And. You know, the creatives are off in their, their own little private space where they can work and be focused. But it’s been really nice to just reconnect with people in person and get lunch with somebody, or remember for me how easily distracted I am and I need to stay home sometimes. Sometimes. But it’s been really nice to reconnect that way. That’s awesome. And so it sounds like you’ve grown, you know, in the last few years, and, and I’m curious when you are making a decision to add someone, order, order, add a new role, like what is some of the processes you go into to know Yes, it’s time to hire someone.

Mm-hmm. Especially if it’s a new kind of role, not necessarily replacing someone, but, you know, how does, what does that process look like and, and how do you, you know, how do you know, how do you find someone and how do you make that decision? So as a service-based business, I think it’s relatively black and white when we hire for like the roles on the team that actually create things because we either have capacity for more work or we are over capacity and we need to bring in additional support.

Yeah, so that part is pretty straightforward in terms of hiring additional creatives, and sometimes that means we leverage contractors in our network to help be a little bit of overflow before we have enough to justify a full-time hire. We have. Our only role that’s doubled right now is the designer and we have one full-time and one part-time, and that’s been really nice cuz they actually have very different strengths. They do different projects, which is really nice, but they also collaborate together.

And then on the, you know, like non-billable side of things, a lot of that work is stuff that has come off of my plate. So what’s, when can I, as a business owner, when can I justify it financially to free up my time so that I can continue to grow the business? But that’s, it’s so hard to hire. For some of those roles because you have to just be a little bit of a jack of all trades and that sort of, for us it’s called an account manager.

It’s a lot of project manager function, but it’s a very client B saying, you know, it’s hard. You can’t test for that role in the same way that I can. We’re also, we’re in the process of hiring a new copywriter right now. You know that person I can say. Okay. Go write this and you know, I’ll pay you for it, but like I need you to go, I need to see if you can actually like write.

You can’t do that with an account manager. Like there is no test for that. So it’s a big risk and it’s taken us a couple of people to find the right. Fit, including an internal person. We transitioned into that role who after a couple weeks was like, I thought I liked this, but I really hate it. Please bring somebody else in. I was like, okay. Yeah. I’m glad you told me right away. Well, and so, you know, for you as the ceo, as the business owner, what is the process that you do to let go of some of that responsibility?

Like I think that’s what so many folks are wondering or struggling with. When you go from. Solopreneur to building a team or when you hire a backfill, I know in the corporate world I, I had to, you know, move into their role and then hire my backfill and then manage that person that was doing the work that I used to do. And that was a little bit, you know, there was a lot of adjusting there. Like what is the process that you’ve gone to through, as you’ve had to do that?

It’s terrible and it’s so hard. Like I just won’t sugarcoat it. That is just how it is in my opinion, hun. Although some things are easier than others. So the creative roles on my team, that’s very easy for me to hand off. I, despite what everyone else wants to say about me, I don’t think I’m a super creative person. I’m not like, I don’t enjoy copywriting. Do I do it well? Yes. Do I like it? Absolutely not.

Like please, anybody else do it? Like the same with design, like, Can I give direction? Can I give feedback? Yes. Could I sit down and like create a sales page? Absolutely not. Like there’s those sorts of things that like I can do, but I don’t want to do. Very easy for me to hand off sometimes too easy and it kind of bites me in the butt and I have to like, I should have coached a little bit better and guided my team better.

This is a different conversation for a different episode, but on the ops side, that’s been really hard for me because I have opinions about that, and it’s also very core to the health of the business. For the type of business that I run as a client facing business. If the person interfacing with clients every day, for example, which used to be me before I was like, I can’t do this anymore. I don’t have time. You know, like it has literally previously impacted.

Like my contract negotiations because, oh, this thing got dropped, or this person didn’t do this, that they said they were due because the person in that role maybe dropped a ball or something wasn’t documented correctly. You know, things. So that’s really hard for me. Some things I just don’t want to give up anytime soon. Sales being one of them. I love sales. I’m good at sales and people sign with us because of me. So not doing that as of right now doesn’t seem smart to the health of the business.

And then in terms of just giving up some of the other things, it’s just being available to the team, guiding them. And I mean, this is a great time to have this conversation cuz my new account manager is Ben. On the team for a little over a month. And I said to him the other day, like, I know I can tell that you don’t always feel like you’re doing a great job, but I want you to know that I was thinking this morning as I was walking into the office that I don’t know the status of some of our projects.

And while that is very scary to me, it’s because I trust you. Mm. And I know you have it handled, and that tells me you’re doing a really good job. Yeah, and like the amount of relief he felt, even though like he still feels like he’s getting all sorts of things wrong and there are certainly things he’s not getting right, which he knows he and I talk about, like we have a very good open dialogue, but I’m like, like, I trust you at the end of the day, and like that is the most important thing.

For me. Yeah. That’s so important. And I think a couple of things there. Obviously we touched on trust, but also, you know, there’s proactive recognition is, is really important for folks. I mean, especially when you’re stepping into a role that the the founder was doing, you can you feel like, oh, this person may be worried that I’m not doing it right, or like you said, I feel like I’m not doing good job. Or if there is a lot of course correcting, I think that’s when it’s even more important to be proactive and to really.

You know, to continually reinforce that, Hey, I trust you. These are sort of small adjustments and that’s because that’s something that effective coaches do, right? A coach doesn’t just say, go play, you know, basketball, get in there. They make subtle shifts, but they, they do that on the foundation of like, Hey, I have a high standard. I know you can meet that. This is to keep you at that place. And I, and I trust you to do it, but it doesn’t mean you have to be fully hands off.

And I think, you know, the more you can. Map out some of the nuance to how you approach things. You feel like you’ve offloaded some of the things that’s, you know, makes it only something you can do and it’s totally in your right to keep some of that stuff. Like you say, sales. If that’s one of the big differentiators, you know, then yeah, absolutely. But if it’s everything, I think that’s when it’s important to evaluate because we’ll burn out as the founder in the, in the business owner.

I think one of the best things. I’ve done in terms of hiring for my team is that my head of operations is very different for me. Mm. I am, I like taking risks. I am impulsive. I like to let people drown a little bit cause I know they’ll get their head above water eventually. She is very thoughtful. She is one of the kindest, most empathetic people I’ve ever met. And she will overtrain people. So everyone on the team reports to me just for our current size, but she functions as hr.

She does quarterly reviews with everybody, and she’s who they go to if they’re having an issue with me or another team member. But more importantly, she’s who I go to. I’m saying, Hey, I’m having this issue with the team, with, you know, with this person, here’s what’s going on. And she’ll say, okay, well what have you done so far to try to fix it? And you know, she’ll be the one to say, okay, I think you’re right to be frustrated, or I think you’re being a little unreasonable, like maybe you need to support this person.

And I’ll say, great. Like, let’s talk through that. Or we had a team member today who was. In a little bit of a mood, and I said, can you reach out to her and like make sure everything’s okay? Like is it work? Is it personal? Like let’s figure it out and be like, Hey, like how can we be supportive of what’s going on? You know? Because nobody wants their boss to be like, you see Moody today?

Like what’s, you know, like, what’s wrong with you? Yeah. You know? But she can come at it from like a safe space and from a different angle to feel empathetic and have them feel supported in a way that I will never be able to do. Not because of me as a person, but because of me and my role. Yeah. Well, and that’s what’s so important about having people on your team, and especially in your leadership bench that are different from you.

You want different perspectives. You need someone to challenge you. Yeah. That’s how we have innovation and growth. And so I think it’s, it’s especially important when. You know, when, when looking at the composition of your team, especially when you don’t have a huge team, to make sure there is a lot of diverse perspectives, different ways of looking at things and, and making it okay. Mm-hmm. To challenge you empathetically. And I think it’s really important to, like you’re doing, to remember, you know, the way that you did it isn’t the only way to do it.

And that, that might be hard at first, but then we see, okay, someone’s. Oh, and unique spin. This can make it even better. And I know when I, I mentioned I hired someone that to do the job that I was doing, I, you know, by letting go I saw, wow, this person approached this in such a different awesome, great way. Mm-hmm. And advanced the work so much further than if I had hung on so tight. And it’s tough, but it, it’s, yeah.

I think the more we do that, the more we see. There’s still a place for us, and I think sometimes managers get anxious or whereby, because especially in a corporate setting, you feel like, well, will this make me obsolete? Or something like that. But yeah, but being a great leader and an amplifier that never makes you obsolete, so it’s not, it’s not really a risk when you elevate people that you’ll fall behind. I think that’s a different issue, conversation to work through with your own leadership chain if, if that’s the case, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of your team.

It’s very freeing when the team does things better and differently than me, cuz I get to learn from them. And when I get to see someone’s approach that’s different than mine, I get to say, okay, cool. What if we also tried this? You know, we get to kind of continue to build on each other and collaboratively get to create something that. Far better than what I would’ve done alone or they would’ve done alone. And I think like that’s where the magic is.

Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. So before we wrap, I wanna hear, you know, is there something you’re working on that you’re excited to share with our listeners? And also how to get in touch with you. Oh, I mean, we’re always working on like, 7 million things. We’ve got a bunch of freebies we could like kind of give over and put in the show notes so we can toss some things your way. But in terms of keeping up with us, you can follow us at Audrey Digital on Instagram or audreydigital.co not com.

That will not be us, but definitely follow along with us on the agency’s Instagram. We do a lot of highlights of the team, including every Tuesday in our story. We share our icebreaker of the week. We do an icebreaker on every team call, and it’s always very silly and very ridiculous, but. It’s been not only really fun for the team, but it’s been a really fun way for our audience to get to know the team, which I just love.

That’s awesome. And so, yeah, I think one lesson out of that is to put your teams out there that they’re part of what’s making this product or service or idea and bring out in the world. So I think sometimes it can, you know, the founder can be the face. The only person I wouldn’t see is or hears from, so. Mm-hmm. That’s what I’ve loved about your content is you showcase everybody and they’re all part of that experience.

Yeah. Thank you. Any parting words you wanna leave folks with? You’re not gonna do it right most of the time and that’s okay. And also, you know, the other thing, cause I didn’t really say it but I said it before, is that if you’re frustrated with something that’s happening on your team, you should take a look in the mirror because it’s most likely something that you are. Causing or like helping to add fuel to the fire of, so you know, don’t just put it all on your team if something’s not right, see how you can make some changes as well.

Yeah, I love that. And like you said, it’s empowering to do that. It’s not like, you know, it’s not a disaster, it’s not. This is when you find you have the power to actually change the situation and to do better. And the more you do better, the more your team does better, everything gets better overall. So well, thank you so, so much for coming on this show. I really enjoyed our conversation and super excited to keep following your work.

Thanks for having me. That’s all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple podcast where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive. I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at liagarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.