I've seen this solve so many issues. If your team member knows that they're going to meet with you once a week and they have questions that pop up throughout the week that aren't urgent, but they need to get done. Like how many times as a manager are you like, stop slacking me all these, like, I don't need to stop what I'm doing to answer these questions right now.
Like quit slacking me. Like, you know, but it's because you don't have a way for them to know that there's a spot for them to ask those questions.
Welcome to the managing mid simple podcast. I'm Lia Garvin, your host and team operations consultant. Through this show and my signature ops playbook, I condense a decade of experience driving team operations in some of the most influential companies in tech to save you time, money, and stress. It doesn't matter if you're a business owner who realized that running a team isn't as easy as you thought it would be, or a new manager looking to learn the ropes, or are a seasoned manager ready to up their game.
Everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple. From conflicts to feedback to delegating and more, we leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it, and everything in between. Let's go. I can't even tell you how many times I've been talking with a business owner or manager and they've said, I want to be a better manager, I just don't know the steps.
Tell me what to do and I'll do it. And frankly, I've felt that way too. Even when I had been managing people for a while. Because this stuff is hard and it changes all the time. So the last time someone asked me for the steps, I made a cheat sheet. Head to LiaGarvin.com/scorecard for 20 things you can do this month to be a better manager.
This is literally your tell me what to do and I'll do it steps to motivate your team and get better results. There's no time like the present. Grab the scorecard or write freaking now. LiaGarvin.com/scorecard. Welcome back to the show. Today I am so excited to have Jackie Koch with me. Jackie is the founder and CEO of People Principles.
And with over a decade of experience recruiting and scaling people ops for startups and small businesses, Jackie founded People Principles three years ago to help CEOs get the people stuff right. And Jackie and I met through an entrepreneurial community that we're both a part of, where people literally kept telling us, you guys have to meet and, and at an event recently we met and it was instantly like, yeah, totally get it.
Yep. There's so much overlap in, in the work that we do. And we both have really similar hypothesis to kind of teams really that, you know, it's unskilled managers or unsupported managers really kind of that get in the way from high performance on teams. And that really ineffective team operations are often at the root of what we look at as people problems, but it's actually a lot more going on at the surface.
So that is exactly what we wanted to talk about today. So welcome Jackie to the show. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. And it's so great to finally meet you. I mean, I know we met like a few weeks ago, but I think I got like four texts from Nick during your guys event. Lia's going to reach out to you.
I was like, okay, great. I know I'm excited. I know. Well, and I mean, again, like we had this instant connection and I'll, I'll rip off the bandaid with the question right away, because I think this is where I was just so excited to talk more is, you know, you mentioned when clients come to you with an issue that they're categorizing as an HR thing, you know, what do you usually see is actually going on for them?
Oh gosh. Usually. It is a them problem on leading their team, to be honest, and it's just a lack, I mean, honestly, if I actually answer that question, I think the root cause of the problem is a workflow problem. Yeah, yeah. Like, usually it's always about the way the work is being communicated, the way that people are working together, and it's not like, a communication thing.
It's like an actual like systems workflow. It's like the way stuff is translated to one another or given passed off to somebody else who's next in the process or the way things are organized to be quite honest is what I feel is most of the time the issue and then quickly followed after the manager of that person being Maybe just not as skilled as they need to be at managing the team So that's where I would say start.
I wanted to initially say the manager, but I actually think it's even before that Yeah, so you heard it here first folks It is the ops issues and the systems and this is the thing. I mean, I think we You know, teams often feel like they have to be way further along to look at, you know, ops and it's has this sort of this kind of vastness, but as you describe it, what it really is is, Hey, how do we know, like we're working on the right thing?
How do I know what done looks like? How do I know where to like put a file when I'm finished with it? Like these little things, they get in the way. And as you call out these kinds of things, when they happen for so long, people are unhappy. It creates. It's tension and conflict and stress, which then I'm guessing sort of is escalated to you as like, Oh, these team members aren't getting along or we have this, like, we have to let this person go cause they haven't been performing well.
A lot of times, like if you don't know what the goals are or what success looks like or what you're supposed to be working on when you finish something, yeah, you may be underperforming, but it's really not like, it's not that you're not good at your job. You weren't set up for success. Yeah, and I think there's two things that come to mind when you are talking to, or like, sharing some of that stuff, and one is, like, think about the way that we work together.
Like, that team's work, and, and how much has changed over the last, God, even literally five years. But specifically, like, 15 years, right? Like I'm a little bit older and so I remember that I used to go into an office and like I would answer a telephone and I would go get a fax, a piece of paper off of a fax machine and then I would put it into this file and like I knew how many calls I had to make.
Things were just like a little bit more simple to roll out to your teams and all of those things. And now we have. Unlimited ways that you could set up how you organize your business, how you organize your team. And I don't think there's enough people paying attention to intentionally crafting those.
And they think because it was simple when they were starting out in their career, why don't these people get it? So that comes to mind. And then the second piece is, you know, HR is being rebranded as people operations. And that's because it, that's really what it should be now. Like, HR, it's so easy to follow compliance stuff now.
Like, there's so many tools that help you do that. That really, HR is the operations on how people work together and work amongst themselves in a team environment. So like, those are two things that come to mind as you were sharing. Some of those things that I noticed, even in my own... Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, you know, with when managers don't have the support they need and now we're in this dynamic where it's harder to have a sense of what the status is and where folks are at now managing people remotely and with hybrid teams, distributed teams all over the world, right?
This is makes it if you didn't get a lot of support as a manager now, like the, the heat's turned up real high. And yes. Yes. Yes. Like, well, how do you, you know, take the limited, you know, understanding of how to be a good leader and apply it to these really complicated situations? And that's why, you know, I have this show and I spend so much time working to develop managers is we have to, you know, get the support somewhere.
Otherwise it's the teams that suffer. And there's so much data. I know Gallup reports on it every year that like the number one people leave, reason people leave teams in companies is the managers. And we all know it. We've heard it. People don't leave companies without managers, but really to internalize that, you know, if you have a team of 10 people and you have one manager, like develop that person.
That's going to be really important to do no matter, you don't have to have a massive team to take action on that. And I think what happens is like you hear that stat is like people don't leave what you just shared. Right. People leave bad managers. Yeah. And so people think, okay, I'm just going to be nice.
Yes. I'm just gonna get to know my team. I'm gonna be kind, and yes, do all of those things, but I think what then doesn't happen is like the tactical side of like how I'm delegating work, how I'm sharing a vision, how I'm checking up. You know, those things are not as talked about as much as having emotional intelligence and giving feedback.
Like you can find unlimited amount of stuff, but what you teach on this show and what you do is actually, I think. The most critical thing that it's not even overlooked. It's like you don't know what you don't know Yeah, like you don't even see it as a problem Yeah, exactly And that's where it starts to have the biggest You know Obviously the biggest consequence because people aren't dealing with it or they're dealing with in pockets And I love that you called out, you know, that building that relationship, the empathy, that's not enough.
It's the foundation. But, you know, I often say that, you know, we know psychological safety or the, you know, the safety and taking risks and being vulnerable is fundamental for an effective team, but I believe the precursor to that is accountability. Because if you don't know what forms you can speak up or share, you know, questions or opinions or these things, then you don't really feel safe.
So it isn't just being nice and, and, you know, liking your manager, liking your teams. We have to know, like the safety comes in the predictability and it comes in knowing what to expect when I show up to work and knowing that. You know, I'm not like, there's not a moving goalpost. That actually makes us feel safe.
For sure. And I mean, I can think of a lot of different clients of mine and CEOs that I've worked with who are great people. Yeah. Like, they have great missions. They treat people well. They are wonderful, generous humans. and their teams hate working for them because they don't have direction and clear goals and ways of working effectively together.
And that is the most important, well, I don't know, I guess being a good human is definitely important, but then closely thereafter is this, right, that we're talking about. Well, because it's part of it. Like, I think it's an incomplete understanding of, you know, I always, you know, I don't know, roll my eyes or get fresh when I hear like, you know, put a bunch of smart people in a room and they'll figure it out.
It's like, that's like ridiculous. Nobody just figures shit out by themselves. It does not work that way. It does not work that way. People need. support, they need to understand like, okay, what are those norms? And it doesn't have to be complicated. And I know both of us talk a lot about this. It's like, it doesn't have to be, you know, using some like really intricate task tracking system and goal setting thing and having all this process.
It's really about the simple few things. You know, that you can set up and if you don't mind, I'll share some of the things that I think are so critical. So we have in my business like whenever we start to work with a new client and I mean honestly every time I've joined so I've been head of people at startups before and Every time I join I like I was reflecting on like when I first started working with clients.
I'm like, okay what would I do every time I would go in and into this first head of people role right and There was always some version of, like, an HR audit. Like, what stuff's in place now? Like, where are we at? Right? And so it would be some of, like, the compliant, like, some of the stuff, like, payroll and employee classifications and how we're paying them.
Are we, do we have labor laws posted? Like, a lot of those things. get forgotten about or not even done just because you're moving fast, right? So we would clean those up quick, make sure that I nines are done, like all of that stuff. And then quickly we would go, I would go into, okay, what are, are some of the best practices in place at these companies, right?
And so a lot of the, the first thing is always like our managers having regular check ins and one on ones with their teams. And do they even know how to do that effectively? because a lot of times a one on one will turn into reviewing a task, right? And so it's like setting them up with a really good system that works for them and their teams on how to have a one on one so that it actually feels useful and your team member isn't like hoping you're going to cancel every week.
You know, like if you hate your boss, you're like, oh, am I allowed to swear on this? I got to meet with my boss. Like, I don't want to, right? So it's like, how do you make that more effective? And like, I think, honestly, daily stand ups are the best way, or a system for setting up both keeping track of tasks and how projects are going, and then a one on one can be like, even just once a month.
And it's like asking questions of like, how can I better support you? What's going well? What are some of your biggest challenges? You know, it's, it's more of those types of questions about supporting them as a manager versus checking in to make sure they're getting their work done. And too often people get those, those conflicted, so that's one of them.
And I'm sure you have thoughts on one on ones. Well, I love that example. And yeah, then I have an episode on effective one on ones talking about the exact same things. I mean, I think one thing to all mention is as a manager, we also dread one on ones when they're like. Just a status update when we feel like, Oh, my team member never brings anything to talk about.
Like it's, and so I think it creates stress for ourselves and our team members. So like having an ineffective one on one, which we keep on the counter every week and both people are dreading it and it, you know, that's useless. Like that is a big waste of time and money. But like you say, when you remove that.
status update element, and you're talking about goals and careers and highlights wins like where folks need support. Now both of you are co creating that meeting and both of you are getting something valuable out of it. And it's a great place to, you know, be recognizing and appreciating and really kind of fueling that motivation if done right.
Totally. And there's also, you know, I feel like you can set up the one on one however you want. Like there's not one best playbook, right? Like, maybe these development conversations are better spent once a month, you know? Like, maybe you don't need to have them every week, but maybe it's once a month. Or maybe you have the first half being going over questions that they have and things like that and then the second half being developed stuff.
Because I do think, like, I've seen this issues. If your team member knows that they're going to meet with you once a week, and they have questions that pop up throughout the week that aren't urgent, but they need to get done. Like, how many times as a manager are you like, stop slacking me? All these, like, I don't need to stop what I'm doing to answer these questions right now.
Like, quit slacking me. Like, you know, but it's because you don't have a way for them to To know that there's a spot for them to ask those questions. So if you have a one on one with them every week, you can be like, Hey, keep a running list of your questions and we'll talk about it in your one on one. And they are like, okay, great.
I have a place that I know I can ask them. And then if something more urgent or you need an answer before that one on one, by all means, ask me, but just know we'll go over this. Right. And so like, that's a great way to solve that annoyance. Because they don't want to do that either. Like, they feel annoying and then they're going to stop asking you questions and then do shit wrong.
And so, and to your exact point, that's why we don't want to cancel the one on one unexpectedly because our team member is saving up these questions. This might be the one time they've been waiting all week that they get to share. These questions, some win that they really wanted us to know about. And, and so I think I have on an interview I did with the woman, Carrie Jacobs, who started this leading with empathy program at Google, she surveyed like thousands of people on what are the top things that make you feel appreciated or like, you know, devalued by your manager and managers moving one on ones was like the number two worst thing you could possibly do because of that thing.
Yeah. And like, even if there's not much to talk about, hop on and be like, Hey, Lia. How's your week going? Yeah. Do you need anything? What can I do? How's your dog? Okay, well like then be done in 15 minutes, but hop on. Yeah, but like I care about you. I'm not like waiting to cancel. I don't think like you're the least important thing in my week.
And I, and I know like from when I was in the corporate world, I had a manager that was always late. She'd be like, 22 minutes late to a 30 minute meeting or like, you know, always so busy, like not exactly. And you just feel like, and I knew she really appreciated my work. She evaluated a good relationship, but that one thing made me feel.
So like not important and not valued and it really, you know, it shaped my seeing a future on that team because I knew that my time didn't matter to her and, and, you know, and so you work so hard to build a relationship and to, and to show that you care and appreciate and find opportunities for someone.
And when you inadvertently like do something like that, it can actually have a huge negative impact that you don't realize. Totally. So one on ones are so important. Do you want me to keep sharing a couple other ones? Yes. Okay. I could go on and on about one on ones, but I feel like there's endless opinions on one on ones that you can find.
The next would be creating a new hire review process. Yes. a process for making sure and evaluating your new hires over their first 90 days. And the reason why I think those matter so much, I mean, you can make them whatever days you want. It's just, it's easy. 30, 60, 90, so easy to remember, right? But the reasons are, are so many reasons.
One is, you want to make sure you're checking, they, they're, you're checking in with them regularly to find out what they need help with, to, to make sure they're doing well, to make sure they're happy. It's a retention tactic. and a getting them as effective as possible, as quick as possible tactic. And it's a way to make sure you know quickly whether or not they're going to work or not, right?
And if you're doing this well after 90 days, you have a pretty good idea and you guys can come together and be like, yeah, this is not for us or like both of you mutually, right? And so literally the 30 day for in what I have clients do is after 30 days. You have a Google Doc that is just some questions asking them how it's going.
It's like, what things are coming up that you didn't expect? What additional resources do you need from me? What's a win from your last 30 days? Where's the time you struggled? Like, what do you need more from me as a boss? And how are you getting along with the team? Meeting the team? You know, so it's like them reflecting.
And they fill that out and send it to you ahead of time. And then you talk about it when you meet with them. And then you have a conversation around it. If there's any things that you've noticed, you share it with them. And like, that's it. It's super simple. It can be a 45 minute conversation. But the key is to get these scheduled before they start.
Otherwise, you're going to never do it. Put it on their calendar. Send them the Google Doc in the calendar invite on 30 days, on 60 days, and 90 days. And set that up as a part of their onboarding process. And not think, pretend that you're going to remember to do it after they start. Because you're not. And then at 60 days, it's a similar thing, right?
But you're also giving them more, you know, feedback. It can literally be as simple as a start, stop, continue. Like, you know, what should you, they start doing, stop doing, continue doing, you know, what have you. And then after 90 days, it's more of a formal thing where they do a little self reflection. You also fill out a form, like a Google Doc, honestly.
Do a shared Google Doc together and then that's the documentation. Like you don't need to sign something. You don't need to send it in an Adobe or in HelloSign. Like that's enough documentation. And in that conversation on the 90 days, like if they're not doing well and you have to tell them that. You can have the conversation of like, this is what we need to improve.
Like, do you want to do that? Yeah. You know, and then it's like an opt in opt out moment. And I think that is a solution to the higher, slow fire fast. Firing fast is not firing within their first 30 days. Firing fast is with like giving them 90 days. It takes at least 60 days to even know what the hell you're doing.
Yeah, totally. So implementing that is huge. I love that. And you know, at the 30, at the 60, again, at the 90, you've set expectations along the way, which are kind of like the stake you put in the ground to be able to give the feedback on. And so if you hit that 90 days and you can reference back to this sort of document you've been building out and these conversations you've had.
So it's not a surprise for folks. And yeah, I mean, I, I love that and putting that in the calendar up front so that they don't see they're approaching nine days and there's a review on their calendar and they think, oh, you know, this is where I get this. It's bad news. No, it's part of the onboarding. So they're preparing.
They know that there's. You know, really an expectation of them, you know, delivering and hitting these goals or whatever also for the first 30, 90 days. And we even have a template where an email copy template that you send to them during their first week and you're like, Hey, you're going to see these on your calendars.
This is what they're for. This is what they're meant for. You know, we may end up moving the calendar invites. It's if we need to, but we're going to do them, you know, and so it's like we emailed that to them on during their first week so that they know what to expect. And so that's so important, especially as a growth company of setting those up because you're hiring a lot of people and you're going to make good hires and you're going to make bad hires.
And how do you consistently and fairly make sure everyone's treated the same? Because that's another thing, right? That comes up with HR stuff is like the risk of, of somebody being treated unfairly because of. You know perceived discrimination if you're doing the same thing for every single person that helps to eliminate that And then of course, there's other things like employee handbook and you know quarterly review processes There's other stuff like that But I would say like those are the two most important things that usually companies don't have in place Yeah.
And like we just talked about, they're simple, right? These are foundational in the Ops Playbook that I do with clients doing, having a clear onboarding, a checklist and everything. Everybody understand what that looks like. Having these reviews at different points, really making sure the whole team is aware of it.
You know, even if, you know, folks have been there a long time sharing, here's the onboarding, here's how you can support it. Here's how we're all participating in this. So that, you know, you can get feedback and make sure you haven't overlooked anything that would be needed. I think also is it, is it critical step and I think the enlisting everyone into understanding this is how we work and this is why.
And so, you know, having reviews reminding folks like we want to have an equitable, you know, process here. We want to make sure that folks are really set up for success and with anything around. People and team operations, I think always anchoring it in, you know, how it benefits the team members to be participating in this is so important because when we talk about process or we talk about a new, you know, system or SOP or whatever, I think a lot of times business owners, founders, COs can have a little process aversion.
They're like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, just a touch, just a little bit, just a little bit. And they're like, Oh, I don't want to be corporate. I don't want this. And the things that you and I are talking about right now. This is so everybody is you know, this is set up for success the most uncorporate way Seriously of doing these things.
Yeah, like and that's really what my mission is is like I have worked in big corporations the Performance review processes for those corporations are soul sucking. I would never I don't ever suggest you do that, but a 30, 60, 90 day check in is like the most basic management 101 thing ever, right? And it's not corporate, but I agree.
Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent, but I get so frustrated with how, you know, you gotta have some. So like what are the bare minimums that you got to have? And those two things are definitely like bare minimums. Exactly. And if something's feeling complicated, like I talk a lot about work tracking, because this is something that I onboard people into work tracking systems in the corporate world.
And it was like my, you know, life's work to get people to understand why you need to track your work, which is because you're running a business. But the fundamentals, if you boil it down to What are like the simplest kind of core things you're trying to solve, right? If you have a super complicated process for onboarding, which involves, you know, making sure that people are training and doing these different things and watching these videos and doing this type of like, that's too many things.
Like, what is the goal that at 90 days, you know, if this person's going to stay, like, that's the goal that you talk about. So if you remove every other little thing, now your whole thing is marching towards that goal. With work tracking, you want to know, like. Overall status of work and people's bandwidth if you remove all the other shit that you have piled in there like it should be doing forecasting and budget tracking and this and this is like all that is gonna make people not fill out the tool and then you Can't use it or you could boil it down to the small sort of jobs that you want this sort of system to do And then get people on board around that that's such great advice.
I mean time tracking is like, how do you know? As a manager, I just have thoughts on time tracking, if you want me to do it. We don't even have to go down this rabbit hole, but we can. But like, I agree with you. People are so, they don't want to track their hours. I myself struggle with it. Like, I get it. I am a busy entrepreneur.
I am busy. But everything is kind of calendarized, at least, where I can go back and do it later. But if I don't do that, how do I know what job I need to hire for next? How do I know what type of tools would actually help, like what I should automate, especially in the world of AI? Like, you want to know how much if stuff is taking way too long, I promise you there's an AI tool that can simplify it, but you don't know what that is to even look into it.
Second, how do you know what to price things? If you don't know how long things are taking you to do in your business, how do you know that what you're charging your clients is actually reflective of how much work is going into it in this fair? And second to lastly, when your team members are saying, I'm too busy, I'm overwhelmed, I don't have any bandwidth, or I can't take anything else on, instead of rolling your eyes, feeling like they're lying, or like, being a baby, no offense, I love employees, but this is a real struggle that managers struggle with.
Have and and I agree. I feel like that sometimes too. If people are tracking their hours, you're like, okay They are at capacity. It is time to hire another person. It is time to do this or like hey You know like this is what it's looking like like obviously like you can then coach them to become more efficient and then the last thing is Is like if you do this before you have a big team So if you're listening and maybe you get solopreneurs listening to this show if you're tracking your time now When it's a team of one or two, and then you onboard somebody, it's not like big brother.
Like if, if, if you're just like rolling it out after your team is ten, people are like, Oh, they don't trust me that I'm doing my work. They want to know, you know, and so it's like if you do this early enough, it's just what you do and you explain it to them. Like. This helps me make sure that we're charging the right things.
This lets me know when you're at capacity and you explain why it's beneficial to them because you're not actually trying to big brother them. Right. Most of you. And that same conversation, if you're like listening and you're like, oh shit, I do have a team of 10, how do I? You say the same thing you just said is like, Hey, I want to make sure I'm not burning people out.
I want to make sure we're able to grow this company and pay you well. Like, so we're going to start like a really simple, lightweight work tracking system to solve these different things. And so, you know, yes, we always want to like, you know, invest in these solutions and think about it as early as possible so that it's just how we do it.
And it's. Always easy to work. And if you are far along and you haven't done it, you can have that conversation any day. It doesn't have to be related to any big problem or some crisis or year ending. It can be like March 5th and you're like, Hey, you know what? I was thinking over the weekend that we should, you know, like, I really just want to make sure everyone feels like, Hey, we, we want to be in this company for the long haul, right?
It doesn't have to be a Q3 planning thing. Nothing like that. Or it can be reactionary. Yeah, exactly. It can be like, listen, we really jacked this up, like, I think, like, this is, we can't do this again, here's how we're going to fix it, and it's just about how you share it. Exactly. And it's also with the best of intentions too, you know, like if your intentions are truly to help your team, like they feel that.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love that as the perfect place to wrap up. And so I'm curious, you know, how can folks learn more about you and, and what's something maybe you're working on rolling out that you're excited to share with our listeners? Oh, well, thank you for that, asking that question because there's so much.
So I have a podcast and I think that's a really great way to is just to get some of the, I'm sure we talk about very similar things. So they're probably, it's probably just going to reinforce things that you share on the show. But my podcast is called, Oh Shit, I'm the Boss. now. And it's, you know, how to succeed when all of a sudden you're in charge.
So that's a great place to just get some tips and free advice and all of that stuff. But we are rolling out in for 2024. Gosh, I can't believe it's 2024. A new program that I'm super excited about. It's HR on Demand. And basically for a very low cost, you can get unlimited access to my team via Slack and via email and some calls every month to talk through any tricky situations you have from like an HR perspective.
And it's just like a really great way to get an HR person in your corner without having to hire somebody full time or somebody who's a little bit old school. It's like, you know, it's modern HR advice. I love it. And like a lot of times you don't know if it's something that needs to be escalated. Like you just have a question.
So this is the perfect thing for business owners and leaders who are like, Hey, can I just like gut test, stress test this thing for you? So that is awesome. We always say we're like the cheerleaders. You didn't realize you needed, cause I feel like everybody goes to HR when there's a. problem, but really, like, I feel like I'm a therapist and like a cheerleader of like, okay, this is what you should do.
You can do it, you know, and so that's what it is. And you can find it on our website, peopleprinciples.co/ondemand, and we'll drop it in the show notes, I'm sure as well, but super excited about this. It's been a passion project for a long time, and it's coming to life. Yes, I love it. Well, I will be using that too.
So I cannot wait. Anything you want to leave our listeners with before we wrap? Oh gosh, I guess like, if you're listening to the show, I just want to say like, kudos to like, trying to be a good boss. I had this conversation with my business partner today and there's so many bad workplaces and it has such a ripple effect and if you're listening to the show, you're one that like, you want to make your workplace a good spot and I just am so grateful for you for doing that because it has such a ripple effect, so kudos to you.
So that's a little bit more of like, etiquette because it's hard. Like, you go on LinkedIn and all you do is see people criticize bosses and businesses. And it's easy to be like, what's even the point? And I'm grateful that, you know, there's a point. So that's what I would leave them with. I love that so much.
And that's literally, that's why I do this is exactly what you're saying. I mean, it is so hard to be a manager, to be a boss, to run a business and, you know, You don't have to figure out alone. Like people like you and I and the work that we do make sure that, you know, that business owner, that leader can be in their zone of genius and be really focusing on what they want to do and knowing that there's people to support them and the stuff that isn't their zone of genius and isn't the stuff that's as easy for them.
So, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks for having me. That's all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive.
I always love to hear from you, so please reach out at LiaGarvin.com or message me on LinkedIn. See you next time.